He's 100% right. Read the words, overrated, and that is plenty fair.

Average pro, above average leadership skills and tactical understanding. He played a great game against forze, but we can't just memory hole that his form and impact went off a cliff during his time in liquid (not that it hadn't already started to go in prior lineups). He is not a star player, his in-game skills are (in my opinion) overrated. Being a leader of men and being a wise planner has nothing to do with reaction time, mid execute angle management, and overall mechanical consistency.

Gotta pay attention to the choice of words my guys. He isn't saying fallen is a shit person, nor is he saying he shouldn't be pro. He is simply saying that the community (at large) overrate the skill of fallen- which I think is a fair assessment to make. And remember, game skills and leadership skills are two different things. I think when you look at fallen as a package, he truly is a legend, but when we look at the individual impact of him as a player in server- he hasn't been great in some time.

Yeah, it just sounds to me like we're coming at it from a different lens. I agree with what you said about a provable history and that we should not normalize this behavior. But where I disagree is on the accept part, and it goes like this; I live my life by the simple words "expect nothing, accept everything". With every person I meet I expect nothing from them, and I accept whatever they choose to do. And I guess here is my logic- first and foremost everyone should have the freedom to pursue happiness in whatever way they can find it. And in conjunction with that logic, if someone's way of finding happiness is tearing others down, bashing others over the head for being themselves, or any of the general "isim's", it shows that they may have a personal problem. As I said, I agree 100% we shouldn't normalize toxic behavior. But I would argue that by allowing others to just "air shit out" it allows you to see people's character better. At least if I hear or see you constantly being a toxic piece of shit, I can remember that in future.

But as I said, I think it's just different perspective. I totally respect what you're saying, I'm just of the mindset that I'd rather we let people show their true colors- and if they show themselves to be shit, just avoid them. And perhaps I helped get to this mindset by both being a highly tolerant person as well as always being physical enough to know that if I or someone I care about is in danger- I can and will step in. And when you have the combination of not letting the ideas of others effect your inner peace, combined with the ability to defend yourself should someone take things too far- you tend to adopt a "live and let live" mindset. As I said before, to me the counter-signal of someone acting toxic is waaaaaaay more valuable than any emotional negativity their behavior might cause. But this stoic mentality is a dying one, so I digress.

Good work on chronicling the whole series of events though. Good journalism, and your stance on the issue shines through. (Reminds me of a political op-ed)

Although I wouldn't be foolish enough to think I could change your mind over internet text, I hope what I said can have some resonance with you- even if not in CS or on this topic. We often look to demonize those who stand in the way of what we perceive as progress. But I would argue that all of us are looking for progress, just in our own unique ways. And you owe it to yourself to not let the paths others choose to walk upend your peace of mind. I promise you, there is nothing more prejudiced to a peaceful mind than judgement.